Investment

» lcha - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by rasputin:
If 'moderate' Muslims had the guts to stand up to their extremists elements like the Pope did the world would be a much safer place.

-- posted by lcha

» javelin - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by rasputin:

Pope John Paul II is spinning in his grave!!!!

VATICAN CITY (AFP) - Pope Benedict XVI faced growing Muslim anger over remarks in which he linked Islam with violence, with the Pakistani parliament calling on him to retract the statement.

In India, the head of the minorities commission said the pope sounded like medieval crusader.

In a university lecture in Regensburg, Germany on Tuesday, the pope implicitly denounced connections between Islam and violence, particularly with regard to jihad, or "holy war".

The pope's official spokesman later issued a response Friday, saying that Benedict respected Islam but rejected violence motivated by religion.

Muslim leaders in several countries have strongly criticised the remarks.

Friday, the Pakistani parliament unanimously called on the pontiff to retract his remarks, while the foreign office accused him of "ignorance".

"This House demands that the pope should retract his remarks in the interest of harmony between religions," said the resolution passed by the overwhelmingly Muslim country's National Assembly.

"The derogatory remarks of the pope about the philosophy of jihad and Prophet Mohammed have injured sentiments across the Muslim world and pose the danger of spreading acrimony among the religions," the resolution said.

The Pakistani foreign office also waded into the row, saying that the Roman Catholic leader's comments would undermine international efforts for peace between religions.

"Anyone who says that there is anything inherently evil or inhuman about Islam only shows his own ignorance of this great religion," foreign ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam told AFP.

The comments also stirred anger in India with the head of the National Commission for Minorities saying the Pope sounded like a medieval crusader.

"The language used by the pope sounds like that of his 12th-century counterpart who ordered the crusades," said Hamid Ansari, chairman of the National Commission for Minorities.

The commission's role includes maintaining harmony between officially secular India's majority Hindu population and other groups, including Muslims who number 130 million in the country of 1.1 billion.

A member of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board also slammed the pope's comments, saying that "What he said was nothing but blasphemy," and called on Muslims to "exercise restraint and not lose their cool."

The pope's comments, made during a visit to his native Bavaria in southern Germany, were couched in a historical reference to a 14th century Byzantine emperor.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,'" Benedict said, quoting the Byzantine source on the Prophet Mohammed, founder of the Muslim faith.

In Indian Kashmir, where an Islamic separatist insurgency has raged since 1989, the Muslim League group called a day-long strike Friday.

And in Britain the Ramadan Foundation, based in the northern town of Rochdale, reacted angrily to the comments, comparing the Pope unfavourably to his predecessor John Paul II.

"The Ramadan Foundation is disappointed that the current Pope has not followed the example of his predecessor," it said in a statement.

"The late Pope John Paul II spent over 25 years to build bridges and links with the Muslim community. He showed the world that its perception of Islam was false and that we are peace-loving people."

The head of Turkey's state-run religious affairs directorate, Ali Bardakoglu, Thursday described the pope's remarks as "a statement full of enmity and grudge." He also expressed opposition to the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November.

And senior Islamic officials in Kuwait and Egypt demanded an immediate apology by the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

-- posted by javelin

» lcha - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by javelin:
The Dahli Lama is still waiting for an apology for that giant Buddha that was blown up by Muslims in Afghanistan years ago.

Lots of Jews are waiting for an apology on all the trash thrown at their religon as well.

And if you lined up all the Muslim clerics that owe Christians an apology for all those bibles that are burned in Saudi Arabia, the wait would be a long one.

At least the Pope didn't draw a cartoon...

-- posted by lcha

» animalspirit - The Pope's remarks

I didn't pay too much attention to the rest of it which is available at the link, but it seems like a dry philosophical lecture about faith and reason which isn't making much of a point about Islam.

Note how he gives the "argument against" Islam and then follows it up with the "argument for" it:

...I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.
In the seventh conversation (*4V8,4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war.Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F× 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...

-- posted by animalspirit

» Laughman - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by rasputin:

Presumably you don't object to the following quote from Benedict which he made shortly after apologising to the Muslims.

Before leading the crowd in the traditional midday prayer known as the Angelus, he said that he wanted to comment on two recent Roman Catholic festivals relating to the crucifixion.

What, the Pope asked, was the point of exalting the cross - a tool of execution?

In reply to his own rhetorical question, he quoted a verse from St Paul, the New Testament author most often accused of anti-semitism.

In the Italian translation, used by the Pope, it runs as follows: "We preach the crucified Christ - a scandal for the Jews, a folly for the pagans".

You've got to give him credit, though: at least he's an equal opportunities bigot.

-- posted by Laughman

» rasputin - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by Laughman:

--

...and you don't see Jews rioting in the streets.

I was at 6 o'clock Mass at a Polish church in town yesterday and the sermon concerned the crosses people may have to bear. In talking about suffering and sacrifice, he said that crosses are ladders to heaven.

All of the priests I've met have been scholars. I have absolutely no doubt that this Pope is a brilliant man.

I'm looking forward to hearing what my Muslim friend has to say about the latest events.

-- posted by rasputin

» hickfish - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by Kirk:

I find it rather awkward that those amongst us that yell and scream about supposed violations of freedom of speech are now the same ones condemning the Pope for citing (quoting from actual text) historical fact.

I had a chance to read the entire speech and found it quite thought provoking, most should regardless of their religious belief or non. It's of a very narrow mind that takes offense here. An even more narrow mind that supports the muslim groups seeking condemnation.

-- posted by hickfish

» PEIC - Pope's comments

In response to Pope's comments posted by hickfish:
From: widetrack (John Dunnahoe)
Date Posted: September 18, 2006 at 09:21:06
Subject: its a bizarro world uh?

It seems the Pope quoted from a 15th century document that described Islam as a violent religion. In protest, Moslems attacked and burned three churches, one of them Greek Orthodox. There is no better way, they could have proven his point.

"By 4:00 PM (EST) five churches of various denominations have been burned, rioting has broken out and the Pope's life could be at risk. All in an effort to prove the Pope's comments re: the violence of Islam wrong. The sooner the civilized world realizes that we are dealing the better....."

-- posted by PEIC

» BoltonCT - The few American Muslims I know are wonderful people.

Two of the people who work for me are Muslims. I do not personally know one Muslim who is not peace loving. The violence perhaps exists because the world does not condemn it.

1) If the UN did it’s job then discrimination on the basis of race and religion would be outlawed by the UN and the World trade organization would punish the extremist behavior the way child labor violations are punished. Put a fine on their producers to help their victims. The UN could also deny nations their right to vote in the UN for allowing organizations like the Taliban that shoot women in the head because the woman’s head is uncovered. In effect all theocracies are the invention of the Dark Ages and should be outlawed by the UN and the world court.
2) The Pope claims “infallibility.” He cannot say he is wrong without changing doctrine. He knows that, and the 10 or more bishops who proof read his speech know it too. So why did he say it? I think the Catholic Church wants the world to take action. What better way than to be a martyr and have the courage to speak and say, “I’m sorry if I offend you but the facts are the facts and your extreme reaction shows those facts have not changed in a thousand years.” It is time for the world to reject groups who murder, especially in the name of God. Even the IRA conceded it was the wrong way when they saw what happened on 9-11. More people died in that 9-11 attack than in all the years of IRA violence.
3) The Crusades were not to convert Muslims by the sword but to liberate territories, to plunder, and to be stupid in the name of God. The second crusade attacked the Eastern Catholic Byzantine Empire and sacked their capital of Constantinople. The Muslims were virtually left alone that time.

The Children’s crusade was the worst of them all. The children were slaughtered or enslaved by the Muslims. In later centuries the Ottoman Empire enslaved and raised the orphaned children from conquered Christian territories as an elite guard and for government administrators.

Something new is blowing in the wind.
Perhaps abject stupidity, extremism, violence, and cruelty in the name of God is no virtue. Could that be what the Pope wants us to see?

By the way I am not a Catholic but in recent decades they seem to have been pretty good.

-- posted by BoltonCT

» lcha - The few American Muslims I know are wonderful people.

In response to The few American Muslims I know are wonderful people. posted by BoltonCT:
BoltonCT, the majority of Muslims may in fact be very peaceful people. But, I believe, you are what you tolerate. And the peaceful Muslims have tolerated the extremists in their ranks for far too long. It's time for them to get vocal in their condemnation of the violence being waged in their religions name. It's time for their clerics to get vocal against the intolerence being practiced in the name of Islam. I believe the extremists believe that they speak for many more Muslims than they do. And they have not really been shown they are wrong in this regard. Until the moderate Muslims show the world they will not tolerate the extremists in their midst, they will be painted with the same brush as the extremists themselves.

-- posted by lcha