Investment

» permabear - Pentagon military institute calls Iraq war "major debacle"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/200804...

Let's see how Bush, Cheney, McCain explain away this one.

To all those who continue to defend this calamity, the debate is over. You've been wrong from day one and continue to be wrong to this day, surge or no surge.

-- posted by permabear

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» Laughman - I couldn't resist

Smiley, if you're out there, remember this?

Weak uninformed Americans = no support

Excerpt: If I am wrong and Bush's plan is allowed to work, and in 6 months from implementation, Iraq is not stable just book mark this post and remind me what a dunce I was. On the other hand if in 6 months things are markedly better in Iraq, link to this post and say you were wrong. - posted Jan 20, 2007 9:26 PM

BTW, here is the latest news from Iraq.

Late breaking: 5 US troops were killed in Iraq on Tuesday.

Smiley and his fellow Surginistas would have us believe that the situation in Iraq is improving all the time. Don't see any of them visiting there in the near future, mind you.

-- posted by Laughman

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» smile_1 - I couldn't resist either :)

In response to I couldn't resist posted by Laughman:

"on the other hand if in 6 months things are markedly better in Iraq, link to this post and say you were wrong." - posted Jan 20, 2007 9:26 PM
______

Man up, and say you were wrong LLaC.

unless...

you are saying the surge was not successful at bringing down the level of violence and no political progress has been made.

Even someone lacking objectivity can see progress has occurred albeit uneven and tenuous. It would not have occurred without the surge.

______

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

"Since September, levels of violence and civilian deaths have been reduced substantially. Al-Qaeda Iraq and a number of other extremists elements have been dealt serious blows," he told lawmakers.

U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker spoke to the political stability in Iraq, saying the White House's troop plans in Iraq would not "tie the hands of the next administration."

He also pointed to progress made by the government of President Nouri al-Maliki, adding that continued U.S. support was vital.

"This does not mean that U.S. support should be open-ended," he said.

The recent violence in Baghdad and the southern city of Basra, where Iraqi forces have taken the lead against Shiite militiamen, showed "there is still very much to be done" to stabilize the situation, but "when viewed with a broader lens, the Iraqi decision to combat these groups in Basra has major significance."

"Immense challenges remain and progress is uneven and often frustrating slow, but there is progress," Crocker said. "Sustaining that progress will require continuing U.S. resolve and commitment."

________

I hate this one as a stat of progress, but it is a measure:

http://icasualties.org/oif/

________

also this one: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/nu...

===========

No one wants to stay in Baghdad any longer than is necessary. The reality dictates that when Iraqis stand up and fight for their freedom we will stand down.

-- posted by smile_1

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» permabear - I couldn't resist either :)

In response to I couldn't resist either posted by smile_1:

All the surge has done is tamp down the violence without any corresponding progress politically or in reconciliation of the parties. There remains an undercurrent of hostility between all these groups. They are just biding their time until the U.S. pulls out, at which time there will be the inevitable battle to see who gets control of Iraq. In the meantime the U.S. squanders $12 billion a month and countless American casualties (which have actually gone up again in the past month). It's a quagmire however you look at the thing. Iraq has harmed the U.S. in ways that only time will bring to the surface.

-- posted by permabear

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» Normxxx - Tell them, because our fathers lied.

Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand
Retired Officers Have Been Deliberately Used To Shape Terrorism Coverage From Inside The TV And Radio Networks; or, How to Suborn a 'Free Press'.
Click here for a link to complete article:

By David Barstow, NYT | 20 April 2008

Epitaph, Iraq:
"If any question why we died;
Tell them, because our fathers lied."
- Rudyard Kipling

-- posted by Normxxx

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» Laughman - Mission Accomplished (Contd.)

5 Years after Mission Accomplished;
April US Troop Toll 50 Killed;
1,073 Iraqis Killed this Month

Juan Cole looks back at the Runt's 'Mission Accomplished' speech.

Excerpts:

We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. [The sites were being investigated before the war, and nothing was being found, so Bush pulled out the inspectors and went to war. Nothing ever was found.] . . .

In the battle of Afghanistan, we destroyed the Taliban . . . [ Maybe not so much; this 'mission accomplished' passage has not been sufficiently criticized] . . .

The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of Al Qaida and cut off a source of terrorist funding. [There was no operational connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda. None. And the US occupation of Iraq gave al-Qaeda a new lease on life ] . . .

-- posted by Laughman

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» walkerman_2007 - Tell them, because our fathers lied.

In response to Tell them, because our fathers lied. posted by Normxxx:

Good grief. Iraq sounds as dangerous as Chicago. If Osama Obama is elected I hope he pulls us out of Chicago.

Tuesday, 22 April 2008 8:41AM

CHICAGO (STNG) - A weekend fraught with bloodshed has ended, but the violence has not, as police report four people have been murdered and eight more have been injured in seven separate incidents since Monday began.

Two of the deaths and seven of the injuries were the result of gun violence.

Edward Black, 25, of 3132 W. Fulton St., was fatally shot in the chest about 12:33 a.m. Monday at 750 S. Karlov Ave. in the West Side's Lawndale neighborhood.

About 3:30 p.m. Monday, a 43-year-old man was shot in the hand in the 200 block of North Laramie Avenue and was taken to Loretto Hospital in good condition, police News Affairs said.

Four more people were shot, one fatally, during a shootout at a McDonalds near at 7601 S. Vincennes Avenue about 7:30 p.m. Monday. 28-year-old Lesley Bonds, of 12047 S. Princeton Ave. was killed in the shooting, the Cook County Medical Examiner's office said.

Three other men, including the 25-year-old alleged shooter, were seriously injured. The 25-year-old alleged shooter and a 30-year-old were in custody for the shooting early Tuesday, News Affairs said.

Just 30 minutes later at about 8 p.m., a man was found with a gunshot wound to the leg in a South Side alley near 1532 W. 62nd St. He was taken in serious condition to John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital of Cook County.

On the West Side, two teens were injured after being shot near Chicago and Hamlin avenues. A 17-year-old was shot in the shoulder and taken to Mount Sinai Hospital in serious condition and a 19-year-old man suffered a gunshot wound to the foot and was hospitalized in "stable" condition at Norwegian-American Hospital.

Just before midnight Monday, a 16-year-old boy and an 18-year-old boy were stabbed at 7354 S. Stony Island Ave. The 16-year-old died of a stab wound to the chest at 12:53 a.m. at John H. Stroger Jr. Hospital and a 53-year-old man is in custody early Tuesday, police News Affairs said.

Police believe the two teens grabbed the 53-year-old man on the street and the man then stabbed the two teens, according to News Affairs. Calumet Area detectives said the man would probably be released from custody.

In another incident of violence, 30-year-old Sophia Garcia was pronounced dead Monday about 2:15 p.m. after she was found hanging with a plastic bag over her head in her home at 1721 N. Harding Ave., the medical examiner's office said. According to police News Affairs, police are investigating the death as a homicide, though it is not clear how Garcia died. An autopsy is planned for later Tuesday.

An Amber Alert remains in effect Tuesday morning for her three children, Oscar Casanova, 6, Karla Casanova, 7, and Fernando Casanova, 11, as well as for their suspected abductor, Benito O. Casanova, who is described as Garcia's husband or boyfriend.
Wentworth, Harrison, Calumet and Grand Central Area detectives are investigating the incidents.

Thirty-seven people were shot, including 13 public school students, and two other people were stabbed in Chicago over the weekend. Seven of those people suffered fatal gunshot wounds.

-- posted by walkerman_2007

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» permabear - Tell them, because our fathers lied.

In response to Tell them, because our fathers lied. posted by walkerman_2007:

There probably are as many guns on the loose in Chicago as their are in Iraq. Maybe if we had some decent gun control in our inner cities, and in the nation as a whole, they wouldn't be as violent as Iraq is.

-- posted by permabear

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» walkerman_2007 - Tell them, because our fathers lied.

In response to Tell them, because our fathers lied. posted by permabear:
Permabear
If you want to take my gun away stop by and I will show it to you up close and personal. My father and I both served in wars to protect our freedom and that includes the right to own guns to defend ourselves. The real need is to get criminal off the street. If you take their guns away they will still use knives to kill people. GAAYAFM

-- posted by walkerman_2007

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» Fred2000 - Tell them, because our fathers lied.

In response to Tell them, because our fathers lied. posted by walkerman_2007:
If you want to take my gun away stop by and....
.
walkerman... I see you're back and still as right wing a radical as ever. I guess time can smarten some of the people but it can't smarten all of the people.
.
How come you've been gone for such a long time...? How come you're back...? Tired of the sewer and miss good discussions?
.
Anyway, welcome back and I hope we can have good disagreable repartee as we have in the past.
.
Oh! By the way.... If you think Iraq is so safe, when are you going there for your vacation? I think I'll be going to Chicago this summer... We'll see who they read about in the papers in the fall....

-- posted by Fred2000

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